Challenge fix

[Iodine]

In light of the new challenge changes in the latest patch, specifically requiring the solo done before unlocking duo and group part. I can see why Ray did the changes he did, to prevent low level players from getting 300, 400 or even 500 challenge points boost long before they should, and also to prevent them having challenges open, ruining it with their low damage, for people who really want to do them.

I would propose a very small change to the current system that would have pretty much the same effect. It will allow people to get those duo and group challenge points up to the last boss without having to kill the solo boss first.

Make it so once you kill the solo boss, you have the next tier unlocked, instead of the current tier.
ex: Kill solo silver werewolf boss, and you can do duo and group gold werewolf.
But also increase the hp values of solo back to what it was before, since you only need to kill the previous tier.

[itsme]

I think that it'd be better to set minimum levels for all difficulties, not just bronze. This way players wouldn't be able to do them early as they wouldn't have them unlocked, but would still allow people that can go some way carrying their own to still be able to do so.

[Iodine]

One of the bad side effects with level restrictions is that the game evolves. New features means lower levels deal more damage. Look forward say 6 months and what might require around lvl 130 now might only require level 70 later on. Shouldn't they be allowed to do challenges even though they can?

[itsme]

If the game evolves to that point then the minimum levels can simply be changed. Besides, the levels should be set so that players shouldn't be able to complete them once they reach that level, they should target being able to finish the first two, maybe three. I mean it worked for bronze difficulty, why not the rest?

[Ray]

@Iodine

Not a terrible solution but seems very biased for specific guilds, and not so much in the interest of the game itself....however it's still a better solution than the existing if considering others who have managed to get dragged.

@itsme

That was actually the first thing I considered, but as mentioned it would continually need to be re-balanced, and level/iou don't really mean capability unfortunately.


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If a better solution isn't discussed, i'll go with your solution Iodine

[CRIMSONKING]

I suggest that the system revert back to what it was before, and that people learn how to use the min level requirement. Since that is the only reason that this change was implemented.

If people learned to lock in a level req so that low levels couldn't join and ruin a potential successful party, no haggling would of occurred. To change the way that challenges is based on a problem that stemmed from being uneducated in how a party is created and run; imo was a bad idea.

A suggestion that has been suggested in the past that goes hand-in-hand with level min req, is the ability to see who (levels) are in a party before one joins it. Though to be brutally honest, if you're joining random parties to do harder challenges, you're doing it wrong to begin with. Imo they should be run with guild members, level min req or a pw with capable people informed of what the said pw is. To just jump into an open party and want it to have the people you need off the bat, is just silly.

Challenge parties have been a work in progress and it will continue to be altered. This was one altercation that I think was a negative one as far as progress goes. Another suggestion that someone mentioned on chatzy, was to allow guild members to party freely with other guild members for challenges. If a complete reversion to the old system is one that is disagreed upon, I think the guild one is a better solution. New players would not be able to be carried unless they some how managed to get into a good guild with strong players. Strong players who are already with strong members can help each other do what they've always done. No completion of a solo challenge first would be needed.

lol Rereading this issue is apples and oranges though. Apples being haggling and oranges being able to control your challenge party, which at this point is totally in your control. If I go to do platinum were, I'm not going to create an open room with no level req or pw. I'm going to put it at 200+, pm high damage dealers the pw and make the room private. Thus eliminating the haggling problem to begin with. To me, to change the way challenges are done because other people are lacking the common sense to follow such a simple guideline is laughable.

Anyways, I do look forward to hearing a better solution than the current one.

[Wildfire2099]

With respect, Crimson, that was spoken like a person who is at the top of the food chain and doesn't remember being new to the game. Not everyone has the benefit of a top guild... not should that have to.

I think the new system is perfect, actually. The challenges were made easier, too, don't forget. I don't see any reason why someone who can't do x solo challenge should be allowed to get extra benefits by letting people carry them to finish harder Duo/Group ones... and I say that someone who got lucky to get into a great guild and had lots of good help... some people don't get lucky, and they need to be able to use the system to find random people. They can now do that with a lot better chance of success, which I think was the idea.

If you wanted to tweak it to make just getting to the last boss (rather than defeating him) unlocks the next level, fine, but I don't see that as being particularly necessary.

[CRIMSONKING]

(07-23-2015, 10:37 AM)Wildfire2099 Wrote: With respect, Crimson, that was spoken like a person who is at the top of the food chain and doesn't remember being new to the game.  Not everyone has the benefit of a top guild... not should that have to.

I think the new system is perfect, actually.  The challenges were made easier, too, don't forget.  I don't see any reason why someone who can't do x solo challenge should be allowed to get extra benefits by letting people carry them to finish harder Duo/Group ones... and I say that someone who got lucky to get into a great guild and had lots of good help... some people don't get lucky, and they need to be able to use the system to find random people.  They can now do that with a lot better chance of success, which I think was the idea.

If you wanted to tweak it to make just getting to the last boss (rather than defeating him) unlocks the next level, fine, but I don't see that as being particularly necessary.

Ray himself said that that wasn't the issue. Being carried was not the problem and he had no issue with the community carrying others. Not sure how you read my post and misunderstood it. Ask anyone on chatzy or kong, I help anyone who has asked for help. So me being on the 'top of the food chain' is out of place, and has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Your second paragraph is very contradictory. First you say that, " I don't see any reason why someone who can't do x solo challenge should be allowed to get extra benefits by letting people carry them to finish harder Duo/Group ones". Which to me means it's undeserved that they be carried when they shouldn't. Then you go on to say, "...some people don't get lucky, and they need to be able to use the system to find random people.  They can now do that with a lot better chance of success..". So first they shouldn't be able to be carried but now they have better success, with random people who are...also going to carry them?!? Your argument makes little sense.

As for your last paragraph, that's also a decent idea to solve the issue at hand. While you may disagree that it isn't necessary, I would like to ask you how you expect the rest of the IOU community who has not reached 700 CP, to get there before 6 months has passed? To solo were rage, is an extremely difficult task. Others before the patch, were able to reach 700 CP when this system was not in place, by doing duo and group rage. But if you have a better solution, I am open to hearing it.

[itsme]

My suggestion was merely to stop extreme haggling, like level 10s in plat. I would probably aim for it to be unlocked when the player is about the level to beat the first creature, this wasn't a very good idea and I guess the re-balancing could be an issue, even though it doesn't seem that when you do re-balance it changes it much.

To Crimson, I used to try challenges without the min thing and always get some really low levels. So to try to avoid that I'd use the min level requirement and proceed to wait for over three hours of not being able to get started, then decide to watch something and come back ~20 minutes later to learn that the challenge was failed. Even with a guild and better yet, chatzy I would sometimes find it difficult to get a full group of challengers when I was more going for an in-complete run (Like I assume you did with Rage Duo and Group).

So after thinking about it, I guess the old system was better as it didn't stop higher levels from helping lower levels if they wanted to, but still allowed you to fairly go as far as your dps allowed. Really the only thing I used to think was critical was some sort of inspection (Just because I don't like the idea of needing to rely on a third party website to organize something like this) or risk a long wait; and an option to make a sound, toggle-able separate of music and effects that will sound when a challenge you're que'd in is starting so that you can actually take part in it without checking back every couple of minutes.


I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by suggesting this, and I mean no disrespect but I have another suggestion for Ray. To avoid this kind of backlash from the community for updates like this one I think you should make a forum thread where you tell us what you plan (preferably before you actually start on them) and let the community talk about it amongst themselves first. I've heard you say many people were complaining about lower levels being carried, but did they actually want YOU to do something about it? This change seems weird to me and a lot of others as you've already seen and this may be able to greatly reduce the chances of something like this happening again.

Once again sorry if I'm overstepping my limits by suggesting that, but I do think it'd be a good way to get an idea of what the community would actually like.

[CRIMSONKING]

(07-23-2015, 05:41 PM)itsme Wrote: My suggestion was merely to stop extreme haggling, like level 10s in plat. I would probably aim for it to be unlocked when the player is about the level to beat the first creature, this wasn't a very good idea and I guess the re-balancing could be an issue, even though it doesn't seem that when you do re-balance it changes it much.

To Crimson, I used to try challenges without the min thing and always get some really low levels. So to try to avoid that I'd use the min level requirement and proceed to wait for over three hours of not being able to get started, then decide to watch something and come back ~20 minutes later to learn that the challenge was failed. Even with a guild and better yet, chatzy I would sometimes find it difficult to get a full group of challengers when I was more going for an in-complete run (Like I assume you did with Rage Duo and Group).

So after thinking about it, I guess the old system was better as it didn't stop higher levels from helping lower levels if they wanted to, but still allowed you to fairly go as far as your dps allowed. Really the only thing I used to think was critical was some sort of inspection (Just because I don't like the idea of needing to rely on a third party website to organize something like this) or risk a long wait; and an option to make a sound, toggle-able separate of music and effects that will sound when a challenge you're que'd in is starting so that you can actually take part in it without checking back every couple of minutes.


I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by suggesting this, and I mean no disrespect but I have another suggestion for Ray. To avoid this kind of backlash from the community for updates like this one I think you should make a forum thread where you tell us what you plan (preferably before you actually start on them) and let the community talk about it amongst themselves first. I've heard you say many people were complaining about lower levels being carried, but did they actually want YOU to do something about it? This change seems weird to me and a lot of others as you've already seen and this may be able to greatly reduce the chances of something like this happening again.

Once again sorry if I'm overstepping my limits by suggesting that, but I do think it'd be a good way to get an idea of what the community would actually like.

Suggestions are always welcomed. lol If you do it in a respectful manner, like you did, it's great. Though you don't have to be that polite :p I have no problems with people disagreeing with my opinion, sometimes I'm wrong or I'm short-sighted in the way I view something. When other people share opinions, and back it up with logic, I admit I was wrong and take their views as my own. LOl bugging Ray more to change something with them. Just speak your mind and in the end Ray will decide what the best change will be. Look at all the people who've viewed the thread but chose not to add their 2 cents, I'm glad you did. It's better to have a more outspoken community.

I like the sound suggestion. As a start up noise would help since it is an idle game. The inspection idea has long been to me one of the best ideas, but Ray has a lot on his plate so it's understandable a system like that isn't as out as yet. Any ways, keep on suggesting any ideas you have.