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Multiple Accounts & Scripting
#11
(02-15-2015, 09:35 AM)pibedetorres Wrote:
(02-15-2015, 06:39 AM)CRIMSONKING Wrote: I have a slight concern about an implementation such as this. What happens to people, who haven't had a chance to use an autoclicker vs those that have. How will they ever come close to catching up to those that have used them in the past, in the rankings. If the concern that this game is a multiplayer game and that scripting is an advantage, what steps will Ray take to even out the playing field. If he doesn't and he implements something such as that, newer players or players who never 'cheated' will stand no chance of ever competing on the rankings. Well, unless ofc, they spend a ton of cash on the game.

If the ranking board doesn't really matter, than 'cheating' shouldn't really be a concern either. As long as people are having fun and playing the game, that's all that should matter. I'm using an autoclicker now, and when I didn't I was falling in the ranking boards. That could be for two reasons, 1) They bought premium content, 2) they used an autoclicker. Since I've had the game on 24/7 there is no third option. I figured heck if others could use it and take advantage, why not follow suit. I personally don't see it as taking advantage, in as much as I see it as levelling the playing field.

If Ray does decide to implement something to alter scripts and autoclickers, he should give out a free reset. While some may argue that if people wanted to 'cheat' and invest their gold and such into auto stats, that they deserve the loss that they chose. It might lead to a lot of quits. Or it may not, though I don't see people trying to play a game that feel as if they were screwed as being fun. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

I'm sorry but I fail to see your point here, with due respect.

You say that if players cannot autoclick anymore, those who didn't autoclick up to now will never be able to catch up with those who did. But this theory has two flaws:

- even if autoclick will still be allowed, those who join the game anytime later will always be unable to catch up with those who started playing earlier, no matter whether the new players are using autoclick or not;
- with that kind of philosophy, whenever on any multiplayer game someone finds an exploitable way to become stronger with means other than the legit ones, rather than having the exploit prevented from happening again should the developers of that game leave the exploit as it is so that those who did not take advantage of it will not be left behind?

Besides this game is considerably new, so I'd rather have a measure against autoclick be taken now even if that means being 50th in ranking instead of 1st because the other 49 used autoclick (not implying that those before me in ranking did that, as I don't always keep my computer on at night).

Autoclicking is pretty much double damage. If a new player used autoclicking and an older player didn't, it's simple math to see that the autoclicker will eventually pass the older player. So for you to say that anyone who joins the game later will always be unable to catch up, has me confused. Unless you meant that a new player who autoclicked still couldn't catch up to an old player who also autoclicked.

As far as the philosophy comment, I don't know. Should the dev allow for a level playing field, or nip a problem in the bud and screw players who didn't abuse it; is up to the dev and what he/she thinks is best for the game. Autoclickers have been in heavy use as far as idle games are concerned, for the dev not to take that into account when making the game is a short sight on his part. To address it now when it should of been addressed on release of the game, makes it a complicated situation. (Sorry for being blunt Ray)

How do you propose to stop 'cheaters' from 'cheating'? Look at all of the idle games to date, 'hackers lol' have and always will find a way to take advantage in the game. At least with an autoclicker, we all have the same advantage at our disposal. If autoclicking is really that much of a problem and Ray has stated before that he can throw up a board for those that have autoclicked (wall of shame), it means that if he really wanted to, he could also ban/delete or suspend those players.

At the end of the day, I play idle games for fun. To see numbers go up and to make new friends. If this games main concern is to have a leader board, and to be considered more of a serious game with rules and punishments in place, then that's fine as well. At that point however, it would lose it's charm to me as something I did for fun. Others ofc, may enjoy that but to each their own.
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#12
Then make auto click a "legal system" in game but -50% click damage , for clicker +50% click and if they use 3rd program then band , problem solve :3
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#13
I think I may have a solution...after I attempted implementing 'auto click' into the game and delving into other suggested solutions on the development client/server to try it out, it felt way too awkward and I know it will confuse players as to what the heck the purpose even is of 'click' upgrades.


So, that being said, how can we allow auto clicking without making it allow you to progress significantly quicker than those who don't use or don't know how to use such programs, but also reward those who do click a little further without adding anything overly complicated, while also not harming those who do use scripts?

Clix! 

A mana/stamina/currency for clicks. Each click reduces the Clix count, and when it reaches zero, takes a bit of time to replenish. This could actually expand the game and strategy significantly...

Balances:
  • Click Damage could be increased by a good margin because of this. Active progression play suddenly becomes more valuable.
  • Abilities could cost clix as well to avoid ability scripting as being all that useful.
  • Clix would regenerate over time.
  • New upgrades for max clix and clix regeneration 
  • Scripting becomes less of an issue, and perhaps even a supported feature with an auto toggle
  • New systems to replenish clix quicker (Special spawns), global events, etc.
  • Enough clix would be provided for a duration (not 5 clicks, you're out)
  • Abilities can be expanded significantly later with actual costs.
I feel this avoids defeating the purpose of clicks/abilities (manual strategical progression), and people can use scripts all they want for clicks/abilities if they really feel it necessary without me having to work against the bot-clock.
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#14
Good work Ray , hope this will happen soon :3
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#15
thanks Ray appreciate it make it fair for everyone!
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#16
I Agree! Good idea Smile
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#17
Sounds like a good solution to me. Quite impressed with your solution actually, gj.
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#18
(02-15-2015, 11:39 AM)CRIMSONKING Wrote: Autoclicking is pretty much double damage. If a new player used autoclicking and an older player didn't, it's simple math to see that the autoclicker will eventually pass the older player. So for you to say that anyone who joins the game later will always be unable to catch up, has me confused. Unless you meant that a new player who autoclicked still couldn't catch up to an old player who also autoclicked.

No, I mean that if autoclick is made impossible to be performed to everyone starting from now or any day soon, neither older players (who did or did not use autoclicks) nor newer players will be able to autoclick. So of course in this case those who autoclicked before then will stay on top of rankings as long as they keep playing, but the only ones who would slightly be damaged by this action will be the older players who didn't autoclick. I fall into this category and I wouldn't mind, if this means at least to prevent further autoclicks from now on. Besides, both older players who did not use autoclick and newer players who will not be able to do so either, can still try to earn positions by clicking as many minutes as they can each day, so that those who used autoclick before will slowly lose terrain to the others unless they decide to spend just as much effort manually clicking as much as they can. I will not do that because I don't like to click too often and I'm enjoying the idle attack, but if someone cares for ranking that much that's where the clicking side of the game makes the difference.

Again: someone doesn't like to click but still wants to be at the top of ranking thus wants to use autoclick scripts to have click damage 24/7? Then what's the point of click damage? Click damage is supposed to be manual click, if everyne were to autoclick the dev could have simply have taken that type of attack out and leave auto attack alone, don't you think?

(02-15-2015, 11:39 AM)CRIMSONKING Wrote: As far as the philosophy comment, I don't know. Should the dev allow for a level playing field, or nip a problem in the bud and screw players who didn't abuse it; is up to the dev and what he/she thinks is best for the game. Autoclickers have been in heavy use as far as idle games are concerned, for the dev not to take that into account when making the game is a short sight on his part. To address it now when it should of been addressed on release of the game, makes it a complicated situation. (Sorry for being blunt Ray)

How do you propose to stop 'cheaters' from 'cheating'? Look at all of the idle games to date, 'hackers lol' have and always will find a way to take advantage in the game. At least with an autoclicker, we all have the same advantage at our disposal. If autoclicking is really that much of a problem and Ray has stated before that he can throw up a board for those that have autoclicked (wall of shame), it means that if he really wanted to, he could also ban/delete or suspend those players.

At the end of the day, I play idle games for fun. To see numbers go up and to make new friends. If this games main concern is to have a leader board, and to be considered more of a serious game with rules and punishments in place, then that's fine as well. At that point however, it would lose it's charm to me as something I did for fun. Others ofc, may enjoy that but to each their own.

You cannot simply compare this game to other idle games. Other idle games are single player. I know a few of them whose rankings on gaming sites (like on Kongregate) make them sort of a multiplayer thing, but it's still really just single player games. Their devs don't mind if you use any means to raise your score, as you are basically playing solo. This is a multiplayer, and the dev is committed to make it fair to everyone because of that. And autoclicking scripts go against that principle. Again, should those scripts be allowed the "click" attack should just be taken out alltogether and this game should only feature one kind of attack, auto attack.

@Ray:
I'm a bit confused about this clix idea, what would they precisely do to make it fair for those who don't use autoclick scripts? If I understand correctly, "clix points" run out after some seconds/minutes of continuous clicks, so this would keep them always at zero when someone is using scripts, and those who don't use scripts would have a regular source of "clix points" they can use to buy upgrades. But with that system I could simply, as example, only use scripts at night or when I'm not at computer, so that my experience and gold from mob kills would be higher at those times; then when I'm at computer I would turn the scripts off and let the clix generate and with those I'd buy clix upgrades till I enable scripts again when going out, and so on. It would still be a progress because scripts wouldn't be left on 24/7 if one wants to make the most of its gaming experience, but I personally preferred your previous suggestions involving special "don't click me" monsters that would entirely stop exp/gold gain to those who use scripts, and as you said those monsters could often change colors/shape/position to make it harder for scripts to detect and counterattack them.

But Ray, allow me to say this: no matter what decision you will take in favor or against scripts, this is your game and you have all the rights to choose what you like the most. We, as users, are thankful for having you listens to our opinions on this and other matters, but it would be a big mistake if you decided to implement something against your own will just to satisfy either point of view of the community. Some developers eventually run out of fun and interest when their "creature" is not like they intended it, and all I hope is you will not stop enjoying working on IOU anytime soon. Smile
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#19
(02-15-2015, 11:23 PM)pibedetorres Wrote: @Ray:
I'm a bit confused about this clix idea, what would they precisely do to make it fair for those who don't use autoclick scripts? If I understand correctly, "clix points" run out after some seconds/minutes of continuous clicks, so this would keep them always at zero when someone is using scripts, and those who don't use scripts would have a regular source of "clix points" they can use to buy upgrades. But with that system I could simply, as example, only use scripts at night or when I'm not at computer, so that my experience and gold from mob kills would be higher at those times; then when I'm at computer I would turn the scripts off and let the clix generate and with those I'd buy clix upgrades till I enable scripts again when going out, and so on. It would still be a progress because scripts wouldn't be left on 24/7 if one wants to make the most of its gaming experience, but I personally preferred your previous suggestions involving special "don't click me" monsters that would entirely stop exp/gold gain to those who use scripts, and as you said those monsters could often change colors/shape/position to make it harder for scripts to detect and counterattack them.

But Ray, allow me to say this: no matter what decision you will take in favor or against scripts, this is your game and you have all the rights to choose what you like the most. We, as users, are thankful for having you listens to our opinions on this and other matters, but it would be a big mistake if you decided to implement something against your own will just to satisfy either point of view of the community. Some developers eventually run out of fun and interest when their "creature" is not like they intended it, and all I hope is you will not stop enjoying working on IOU anytime soon.  Smile


It effectively diminishes the advancement rate of auto clicking but allows more active users (who would obviously have a lump of clix over an auto clicker who has none) to be able to strategize that output for better results - such as progressing through zones, vs bosses, or just using the clix in a more efficient approach than to just have a clicker diminish the small amount they replenish right away.

Obviously someone using an auto clicker will get that extra few clicks here and there, but we are talking a very small fraction of additional progression by using one as opposed to the usefulness of not. It allows people to auto-click if they deem it necessary but makes it more rewarding to use the clix as they were intended, and loses the defeat in the overall purpose of click upgrades (manual play).

but I personally preferred your previous suggestions involving special "don't click me" monsters that would entirely stop exp/gold gain to those who use scripts


This was only to slow down scripters. Let me be very clear on this though, it's not that difficult and while people may think one wouldn't bother, it is quite simple to detect images, packets, etc and script based on those interaction - i've seen pretty complex botting in games with extremely low CCU (5-20) compared to IOU (180-220 currently and growing). No matter what is added to attempt to 'prevent' scripting, it can always be worked around and acts as a challenge to those it attempts to block. It may stop average gamers, but the second an advanced scripter comes up with a way around it and shares it, the whole thing becomes a waste of development time and harms the game's community all over again. A time when development could have been spent on features over the "bot-battle". Make botting less useful, resolve it all at once.

I constantly spent most of the electronic activity in my grey matter over the past few days trying to find a solution that has the most positive impact based on the communities feelings (more actually in favor of scripting, but many let down finding out that people actually were scripting), and not just some patch that will 'take things away' and penalize people, but a solution that could prove to enhance the current game. My solution attempts to meet those needs, and while it may not be perfect, it's the best I can seem to muster at this time.




Some developers eventually run out of fun and interest when their "creature" is not like they intended it, and all I hope is you will not stop enjoying working on IOU anytime soon.


I'm also not going to lose momentum by feeding off the ideas of the community over my own. If I made a change that caused a majority of those who love the game to hate it; now that would diminish my motivation Wink

I have ensured to make plans that give this game everything included in the roadmap, and then some. I have strict schedules plotted to ensure development of this game continues until it has more than 2-3 years worth of content, along with an endless progression system [Inferno Mode] after the final ascension.
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#20
After reading your reply I am finally convinced of the better effectiveness of clix system, thanks for sharing your reasons on the matter  Smile It really seems like the best course of action in the end, especially because it will not require you to constantly come up with more and more temporary solutions against those scripts thus having less time to focus on new content for the game, as you said. Keep up the awesome work!  Big Grin
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